Beliefs, so are they important?
"Mark Allenby" 09:30 17/12/2006
When I am training I often use the idea of a practice
triangle. It's easier to draw than explain in words,
but it goes like this.

Imagine an equilateral triangle split by four vertical
lines into five sections.

The top section, the smallest, is the precise
techniques we use.

The second one, the next smallest, is the model or
theory that underpins the techniques.

The middle section is the relationship, particularly,
the way we relate to other people, especially in the
context of therapy.

The fourth section is our personal qualities and
attributes, good old Rogerian stuff like respect,
empathy, non-possessive warmth and so on.

The final, and biggest section, is our beliefs and
values.

I use it to try and illustrate the need to be more
concerned for the ways we relate to people as people
rather than as objects to practice our skills on.

Now here's the poser. This model suggests that our
beliefs are the most important things about what we
do. So do beliefs underpin what we do?

To give an example. On Friday I met with an 9 year old
girl, her mother and the school nurse. The girl had
been pulling her hair out, literally.

Do I believe this is in fact tricholomania, a type of
anxiety/habit disorder, rooted in some
bio-psycho-social cause, or do I believe that Spike (A
spikey yellow ball that varies in size) has been
tricking her into doing something she doesn't want to
do, or doesn't it matter? (The middle option does not
imply I have taken drugs, it was the externalised view
we developed while talking about how she stands up to
the urge to pull her hair and all the feelings that go
with that.)

Are there 'essential beliefs' to solution focused
practice?

Is it OK to have diametrically opposed beliefs at the
same time, for example that schizophrenia is both a
"real" biochemical disorder, and a social construction
that may not best suit a particular individual?

By the way the metaphor of how we can best used the
list, does that mean we are going to be talking a lot
of Bull from now on?

Happy Christmas,

Mark




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"martin fletcher" 10:46 17/12/2006
Mark Allenby wrote:
> Are there 'essential beliefs' to solution focused
> practice?
>

Hi Mark,
you've stopped me from going back into 'lurk' mode.

these are my views of your question...

a. SF is technique i.e. finding out what works for the client.

b. SF technique is based on the idea that clients are the people most
likely to know about possibilities for change in their own lives - I
don't think it's a belief - de Shazer and Berg observed it in practice /
Erickson too / me too in my practice - I have seen it over years in many
different settings and types of work, it doesn't require any faith on my
part.

It may be that SF is a combination of art and science - a bit like
my music comments in another thread - but that is still 2 techniques
tied together rather than a 'belief' system.

c. SF is now an industry (a large detached cottage one, perhaps) in the
field of 'psychotherapy'...and all the other little 'erapies'. That
means it has to be explicable and certifiable etc. Result - philosophies
/ beliefs / articles of faith / distortions / dissension / divergence /
diversification and on.... but Politics and politics invades every area
of human activity once it has been around a while.

SF is basically simple - take any 3 SF books and examine them closely -
once you have stripped away the necessary padding (specialist client
focus etc.) they are all the same...they set out the key elements and
how to perform them. I own lots and it is mostly a result of my
acquisitive nature, rather than because they contain vast amounts of
'new' ways to do SF.

Important disclaimer - that last sentence is not intended to be
dismissive or critical of any of the people I know who have written SF
books in the UK and beyond - there is real value in showing how a client
(group) may benefit from a skilled application of the technique.

all the best,

Martin Fletcher
"jane woollatt" 10:08 17/12/2006
I could be better at this but - if our beliefs are "contructs" and we accept
them as such and not the truth but a truth,- then what ever "belief" may be
useful in a given context - but as I have understood SF beliefs are not
important unless they are those of the Client and then it is about asking
questions that will help the Client to find a useful way to do something
with that thought..............

Beliefs can in my opinion be challenged changed influenced they are so
mutable.......my mum who is not a timid person found herself wondering
around an empty shopping Mall late at night in the dark yesterday in search
of Toys R Us, as you do, she became more than usually anxious and she knew
it was because of the top news story at the moment - about vunerable women
she felt more than usually vunerable........I am not sure where beliefs fit
it other than our (the SF workers) belief in the future and hope I
guess...........and that this stuff works research I have heard it said
seems to indicate that if the worker believes in the model then this is more
likely to be conveyed and has a possitive effect on the relationship.
Jane

>From: Mark Allenby
>Reply-To: members@ukasfp.co.uk
>To: "Jane Woollatt"
>Subject: [members] Beliefs, so are they important?
>Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 21:30:22 +0000 (GMT)
>
>When I am training I often use the idea of a practice
>triangle. It's easier to draw than explain in words,
>but it goes like this.
>
>Imagine an equilateral triangle split by four vertical
>lines into five sections.
>
>The top section, the smallest, is the precise
>techniques we use.
>
>The second one, the next smallest, is the model or
>theory that underpins the techniques.
>
>The middle section is the relationship, particularly,
>the way we relate to other people, especially in the
>context of therapy.
>
>The fourth section is our personal qualities and
>attributes, good old Rogerian stuff like respect,
>empathy, non-possessive warmth and so on.
>
>The final, and biggest section, is our beliefs and
>values.
>
>I use it to try and illustrate the need to be more
>concerned for the ways we relate to people as people
>rather than as objects to practice our skills on.
>
>Now here's the poser. This model suggests that our
>beliefs are the most important things about what we
>do. So do beliefs underpin what we do?
>
>To give an example. On Friday I met with an 9 year old
>girl, her mother and the school nurse. The girl had
>been pulling her hair out, literally.
>
>Do I believe this is in fact tricholomania, a type of
>anxiety/habit disorder, rooted in some
>bio-psycho-social cause, or do I believe that Spike (A
>spikey yellow ball that varies in size) has been
>tricking her into doing something she doesn't want to
>do, or doesn't it matter? (The middle option does not
>imply I have taken drugs, it was the externalised view
>we developed while talking about how she stands up to
>the urge to pull her hair and all the feelings that go
>with that.)
>
>Are there 'essential beliefs' to solution focused
>practice?
>
>Is it OK to have diametrically opposed beliefs at the
>same time, for example that schizophrenia is both a
>"real" biochemical disorder, and a social construction
>that may not best suit a particular individual?
>
>By the way the metaphor of how we can best used the
>list, does that mean we are going to be talking a lot
>of Bull from now on?
>
>Happy Christmas,
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>
>___________________________________________________________
>Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo!
>Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
>

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"Steve Freeman" 11:11 17/12/2006
Martin, Brilliant.

Steve


Steve Freeman
Research Nurse/Solution Focused Approaches Manager,
Combined Healthcare NHS Trust.
Lecturer Keele University
Chair UK Association for Solution Focused Practice.
www.ukasfp.co.uk
www.solutionfocusedapproaches.co.uk
"windsor" 01:41 18/12/2006
I think that Mark is using Maslow's model of the Hierarchy of Needs (1943)



The triangle has horizontal lines (sorry Mark, I think that 'vertical lines'
was a typo) and is divided into 5 sections.

Bottom sector - basic bodily needs of food, water etc.

Next one - security of living - home, room, doors.

Third one - social interaction - being accepted as part of a group.

Fourth one - demonstrating leadership in some form.

Top one - 'Self-Actualisation' - what you do for your soul and spirit.



In life one starts at the bottom level and slowly work upwards. As one
'fills' a level (the extent of the fill is determined by the individual and
varies widely) one moves up.



If any level is threatened in any way, one moves down to protect the next
lowest level.



There's a whole mile more of this about Maslow - but this gives a clue about
how it works. I've taught Maslow for years - and observed it in action. I
think he was absolutely right.



So we have to energise people to step further up the triangle. And support
them if a level is threatened.



This is too short and broken to explain it in full (when training it took me
most of a morning to develop it properly) - but just ask if you need more.



Joe







-----Original Message-----
From: members@ukasfp.co.uk [mailto:members@ukasfp.co.uk] On Behalf Of Mark
Allenby
Sent: 17 December 2006 21:30
To: Joe
Subject: [members] Beliefs, so are they important?



When I am training I often use the idea of a practice

triangle. It's easier to draw than explain in words,

but it goes like this.



Imagine an equilateral triangle split by four vertical

lines into five sections.



The top section, the smallest, is the precise

techniques we use.



The second one, the next smallest, is the model or

theory that underpins the techniques.



The middle section is the relationship, particularly,

the way we relate to other people, especially in the

context of therapy.



The fourth section is our personal qualities and

attributes, good old Rogerian stuff like respect,

empathy, non-possessive warmth and so on.



The final, and biggest section, is our beliefs and

values.



I use it to try and illustrate the need to be more

concerned for the ways we relate to people as people

rather than as objects to practice our skills on.



Now here's the poser. This model suggests that our

beliefs are the most important things about what we

do. So do beliefs underpin what we do?



To give an example. On Friday I met with an 9 year old

girl, her mother and the school nurse. The girl had

been pulling her hair out, literally.



Do I believe this is in fact tricholomania, a type of

anxiety/habit disorder, rooted in some

bio-psycho-social cause, or do I believe that Spike (A

spikey yellow ball that varies in size) has been

tricking her into doing something she doesn't want to

do, or doesn't it matter? (The middle option does not

imply I have taken drugs, it was the externalised view

we developed while talking about how she stands up to

the urge to pull her hair and all the feelings that go

with that.)



Are there 'essential beliefs' to solution focused

practice?



Is it OK to have diametrically opposed beliefs at the

same time, for example that schizophrenia is both a

"real" biochemical disorder, and a social construction

that may not best suit a particular individual?



By the way the metaphor of how we can best used the

list, does that mean we are going to be talking a lot

of Bull from now on?



Happy Christmas,



Mark









___________________________________________________________

Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo!
Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
"jane woollatt" 07:37 18/12/2006
Hi joe have gone back to Mark's email post and I don't think he is
describing Maslow's model - vertical, horizontal aside it seems something
different......Mark will know. Jane




>From: "windsor"
>Reply-To: members@ukasfp.co.uk
>To: "Jane Woollatt"
>Subject: [members] Beliefs, so are they important?
>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:41:46 -0000
>
>I think that Mark is using Maslow's model of the Hierarchy of Needs (1943)
>
>
>
>The triangle has horizontal lines (sorry Mark, I think that 'vertical
>lines'
>was a typo) and is divided into 5 sections.
>
>Bottom sector - basic bodily needs of food, water etc.
>
>Next one - security of living - home, room, doors.
>
>Third one - social interaction - being accepted as part of a group.
>
>Fourth one - demonstrating leadership in some form.
>
>Top one - 'Self-Actualisation' - what you do for your soul and spirit.
>
>
>
>In life one starts at the bottom level and slowly work upwards. As one
>'fills' a level (the extent of the fill is determined by the individual and
>varies widely) one moves up.
>
>
>
>If any level is threatened in any way, one moves down to protect the next
>lowest level.
>
>
>
>There's a whole mile more of this about Maslow - but this gives a clue
>about
>how it works. I've taught Maslow for years - and observed it in action. I
>think he was absolutely right.
>
>
>
>So we have to energise people to step further up the triangle. And support
>them if a level is threatened.
>
>
>
>This is too short and broken to explain it in full (when training it took
>me
>most of a morning to develop it properly) - but just ask if you need more.
>
>
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: members@ukasfp.co.uk [mailto:members@ukasfp.co.uk] On Behalf Of Mark
>Allenby
>Sent: 17 December 2006 21:30
>To: Joe
>Subject: [members] Beliefs, so are they important?
>
>
>
>When I am training I often use the idea of a practice
>
>triangle. It's easier to draw than explain in words,
>
>but it goes like this.
>
>
>
>Imagine an equilateral triangle split by four vertical
>
>lines into five sections.
>
>
>
>The top section, the smallest, is the precise
>
>techniques we use.
>
>
>
>The second one, the next smallest, is the model or
>
>theory that underpins the techniques.
>
>
>
>The middle section is the relationship, particularly,
>
>the way we relate to other people, especially in the
>
>context of therapy.
>
>
>
>The fourth section is our personal qualities and
>
>attributes, good old Rogerian stuff like respect,
>
>empathy, non-possessive warmth and so on.
>
>
>
>The final, and biggest section, is our beliefs and
>
>values.
>
>
>
>I use it to try and illustrate the need to be more
>
>concerned for the ways we relate to people as people
>
>rather than as objects to practice our skills on.
>
>
>
>Now here's the poser. This model suggests that our
>
>beliefs are the most important things about what we
>
>do. So do beliefs underpin what we do?
>
>
>
>To give an example. On Friday I met with an 9 year old
>
>girl, her mother and the school nurse. The girl had
>
>been pulling her hair out, literally.
>
>
>
>Do I believe this is in fact tricholomania, a type of
>
>anxiety/habit disorder, rooted in some
>
>bio-psycho-social cause, or do I believe that Spike (A
>
>spikey yellow ball that varies in size) has been
>
>tricking her into doing something she doesn't want to
>
>do, or doesn't it matter? (The middle option does not
>
>imply I have taken drugs, it was the externalised view
>
>we developed while talking about how she stands up to
>
>the urge to pull her hair and all the feelings that go
>
>with that.)
>
>
>
>Are there 'essential beliefs' to solution focused
>
>practice?
>
>
>
>Is it OK to have diametrically opposed beliefs at the
>
>same time, for example that schizophrenia is both a
>
>"real" biochemical disorder, and a social construction
>
>that may not best suit a particular individual?
>
>
>
>By the way the metaphor of how we can best used the
>
>list, does that mean we are going to be talking a lot
>
>of Bull from now on?
>
>
>
>Happy Christmas,
>
>
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>___________________________________________________________
>
>Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo!
>Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
>
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Think you're a film buff? Play the Movie Mogul quiz and win fantastic
prizes! http://www.msnmoviemogul.com

)
"Evan George" 08:08 18/12/2006
Hi

I'm terribly puzzled by this.

>There's a whole mile more of this about Maslow - but this gives a clue
>about how it works. I've taught Maslow for years - and observed it in action. I
>think he was absolutely right.
>So we have to energise people to step further up the triangle. And support
>them if a level is threatened.


This Maslow stuff seems to be a normalising framework/expert position that seems to have nothing whatsosever to do with Solution Focus. What is the relevance? Or am I missing something?

Evan
BRIEF
www.brieftherapy.org.uk
"Steve Freeman" 09:36 18/12/2006
Hi Mark & team,
The explanation can't have been so bad Mark. I used on the last day of a 3 day course today (and credited it to you of course). The feedback was great, some people who had 'got it' got it better and some people who thought they'd got it really did get it (delegates comments). No one mentioned Maslow in feedback.
Curiously I worked horizontal lines as I had not read the message accurately.
See you soon

Steve


Steve Freeman
Research Nurse/Solution Focused Approaches Manager,
Combined Healthcare NHS Trust.
Lecturer Keele University
Chair UK Association for Solution Focused Practice.
www.ukasfp.co.uk
www.solutionfocusedapproaches.co.uk
"craig osment" 09:29 18/12/2006
Hi

I'm also a bit puzzled by this, the trouble with Maslow is that it makes
assumptions about self actualisation without consultation with whoever one
is working with. Really it is a kind of one size fits all socio -economic
model and if the boxes are ticked everything is o.k. (in theory, and
according to an expert theoretician) I think it has it's uses, but it
doesn't seem particularly solution focused as it assumes that people want
to move up the levels. Says who?They may not want to!, it is ok for them to
not 'self actualise' if that's not their prefferred future, or they may
want to stay the same, but cope better.
That said people might want to come up with their own levels and use their
own triangle to set goals, but that would be an entirely different thing .
Regards to all, Craig
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan George"
To: "craig"
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:08 PM
Subject: [members] Beliefs, so are they important?


Hi

I'm terribly puzzled by this.

>There's a whole mile more of this about Maslow - but this gives a clue
>about how it works. I've taught Maslow for years - and observed it in
>action. I
>think he was absolutely right.
>So we have to energise people to step further up the triangle. And support
>them if a level is threatened.


This Maslow stuff seems to be a normalising framework/expert position that
seems to have nothing whatsosever to do with Solution Focus. What is the
relevance? Or am I missing something?

Evan
BRIEF
www.brieftherapy.org.uk



)
"Mark Allenby" 09:10 18/12/2006
I agree about the books, and I own 20 or 30 of them.
Basically once you've said, find out what they want,
and find out what they are already doing that's moving
them towards it, the rest is just personal style.

I still like to read how different people write about
the same thing.

Mark

--- martin fletcher wrote:

> Mark Allenby wrote:
> > Are there 'essential beliefs' to solution focused
> > practice?
> >
>
> Hi Mark,
> you've stopped me from going back into 'lurk' mode.
>
> these are my views of your question...
>
> a. SF is technique i.e. finding out what works for
> the client.
>
> b. SF technique is based on the idea that clients
> are the people most
> likely to know about possibilities for change in
> their own lives - I
> don't think it's a belief - de Shazer and Berg
> observed it in practice /
> Erickson too / me too in my practice - I have seen
> it over years in many
> different settings and types of work, it doesn't
> require any faith on my
> part.
>
> It may be that SF is a combination of art and
> science - a bit like
> my music comments in another thread - but that is
> still 2 techniques
> tied together rather than a 'belief' system.
>
> c. SF is now an industry (a large detached cottage
> one, perhaps) in the
> field of 'psychotherapy'...and all the other little
> 'erapies'. That
> means it has to be explicable and certifiable etc.
> Result - philosophies
> / beliefs / articles of faith / distortions /
> dissension / divergence /
> diversification and on.... but Politics and politics
> invades every area
> of human activity once it has been around a while.
>
> SF is basically simple - take any 3 SF books and
> examine them closely -
> once you have stripped away the necessary padding
> (specialist client
> focus etc.) they are all the same...they set out the
> key elements and
> how to perform them. I own lots and it is mostly a
> result of my
> acquisitive nature, rather than because they contain
> vast amounts of
> 'new' ways to do SF.
>
> Important disclaimer - that last sentence is not
> intended to be
> dismissive or critical of any of the people I know
> who have written SF
> books in the UK and beyond - there is real value in
> showing how a client
> (group) may benefit from a skilled application of
> the technique.
>
> all the best,
>
> Martin Fletcher
>
>
>




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"Mark Allenby" 09:08 18/12/2006
Dear All,

I fear I did not explain myself very well, and I was
rather muddled in my presentation on the orignal
questions.

Firstly, yes the triangle is divided horizonally, not
vertically.

Secondly, it has nothing whatsoever to do with
Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It is an attempt to
visually represent my personal view about the relative
importance of various aspects of what goes on in
therapy. The bigger the section, the more significant.
I am floating this on the understanding that it may
not be helpful and it may not be solution focused, but
I am interested in dialogue about what we do.

The idea is that our beliefs and values underpin our
personal qualities and attributes, these in turn
influence the ways we relate to others. The theories
and models we use stand on that base and the actual
techniques we use are just the frothy bits on the top.

Thirdly, someone commented that SF is about technique,
not theory. I would suggest that this is possibly a
dangerous way to practice. Just because there are no
causal theories in SFP does not mean that there are
not important beliefs in it.

Let me give a story.

When my eldest son was about 3 we were visited by a
trainee nursery nurse. She explained that they had
been 'doing children's drawings' and said that you
shouldn't ask a child what a drawing is, you should
ask them to tell you about it.

About 2 minutes later my son came in with a drawing
and the nursery nurse said "Tell me about your draw."
He launched in with a description of what he had been
drawing, to which she replied, "It's not very good."

In case you are wondering I have not made it up, it
happened.

If we don't understand why we do what we do we run the
risk of messing up.

Finally, when I have run training I am struck by how
some people 'get it' and others simply cannot accept
what we are doing. I believe that the incongruence
shows, if we don't believe in the technique it doesn't
seem to work.

Maybe the key to SFP is unbeliefs. We don't believe
causality is that important, we don't believe we have
the answers, we don't believe people need fixing and
so on.

Mark



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