| "Chris Iveson" |
09:32 |
17/11/2006 |
|
I think this is a multi-layered issue with "equality" having many
different meanings. The "equality" I go for is the equality of
opportunity to have your voice heard which I see as a key building block
of all equality: if you don't have a voice you cannot contribute
constructively to the world you live in.
The "rule" of conversation that permits this multitude of voices as well
as allowing room for our own voice is the rule of turn taking so as long
as the therapist doesn't speak out of turn (ie doesn't interrupt) the
client will have an equality of opportunity to contribute to whatever
the conversation creates. I see this as creating equality within
hierarchies and I think every client knows when it happens.
The other "rule" of conversation, the rule that makes it a creative (or
co-constructed) event, is that each turn should build in some way on the
previous turn and I would see this as a most important rule in any
therapeutic conversation. (Each model then leads to different choices
about what part of the client's answer to build on.) It is out of this
collaborative process with each person including and elaborating on the
other that something new (and occasionally useful) comes to be said.
Chris
BRIEF
www.brieftherapy.org.uk
)
|
|
| "Mark Allenby" |
02:53 |
17/11/2006 |
|
Once again Chris you have managed to neatly summarise
a complex issue in a very simple way. Your explanation
makes perfect sense to me.
Many thanks,
Mark
--- Chris Iveson
wrote:
>
> I think this is a multi-layered issue with
> "equality" having many
> different meanings. The "equality" I go for is the
> equality of
> opportunity to have your voice heard which I see as
> a key building block
> of all equality: if you don't have a voice you
> cannot contribute
> constructively to the world you live in.
>
> The "rule" of conversation that permits this
> multitude of voices as well
> as allowing room for our own voice is the rule of
> turn taking so as long
> as the therapist doesn't speak out of turn (ie
> doesn't interrupt) the
> client will have an equality of opportunity to
> contribute to whatever
> the conversation creates. I see this as creating
> equality within
> hierarchies and I think every client knows when it
> happens.
>
> The other "rule" of conversation, the rule that
> makes it a creative (or
> co-constructed) event, is that each turn should
> build in some way on the
> previous turn and I would see this as a most
> important rule in any
> therapeutic conversation. (Each model then leads to
> different choices
> about what part of the client's answer to build on.)
> It is out of this
> collaborative process with each person including and
> elaborating on the
> other that something new (and occasionally useful)
> comes to be said.
>
> Chris
>
> BRIEF
> www.brieftherapy.org.uk
>
>
>
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
)
|
|
| "Chris Iveson" |
05:50 |
17/11/2006 |
|
Hi Jo
I wish I could but only yesterday I found myself having a 'superior'
thought while watching another bus passenger and the day before I
couldn't stop a little voice in my head saying about a person I'd just
met: "I wish I was more like you!" And I have occasionally met people
who have that almost Mandela-like ability to accept people as they are
and be the same person with each but I think this is a way of being that
is beyond instruction (or the instruction that most of us can afford).
I have also worked with many people who talk equality and do abuse, who
say they will listen and then lambaste, who say they are interested yet
ask no questions based on genuine curiosity, who advocate partnership
and impose conditions. These are everyday occurrences for 'users' of
public sector services.
We are both necessarily and pleased to be committed to equality and
respectful of difference in our work with clients and in our training
and I don't think it is sufficient to say you should treat everyone as
equal. I think we need to teach some basic building blocks: ways of
behaving that promote the possibility of the client experiencing
themselves as influential in their dealings with us. Turn-taking and
building on each answer are behaviours which ensure the client has a say
which is heard and that is a step in the right direction!
All the best
Chris
www.brieftherapy.org.uk
|
|
| "Steve Freeman" |
05:34 |
17/11/2006 |
|
I really like the idea of practicing humility.
Steve
Steve Freeman
Research Nurse/Solution Focused Approaches Manager,
Combined Healthcare NHS Trust.
Lecturer Keele University
Chair UK Association for Solution Focused Practice.
www.ukasfp.co.uk
www.solutionfocusedapproaches.co.uk
|
|
| "windsor" |
05:19 |
17/11/2006 |
|
Hi Chris -
I think your message strays away from the issue of equality. I wholly agree
with your 'rules of conversation' - but they have nothing to do with the
fundamental reality of equality.
I think this is a multi-layered issue with "equality" having many different
meanings.
Not for me. I am a committed egalitarian and for me the two rules are very
simple. I am no better than you - and you are no better than I. I control
the first part - and the fun comes from the second part when people puff
themselves up and behave as if they are over me in some way. Never. But I
recognise that others know things that I don't know - which I respect -
whilst I know things they don't know for which I expect their respect.
The "equality" I go for is the equality of opportunity to have your voice
heard which I see as a key building block
of all equality: if you don't have a voice you cannot contribute
constructively to the world you live in.
I wholly concur with what you say. But I suggest that your expressed
sentiment is a 'second stage' to the simple principle of equality which, as
I have suggested, many so-called 'professionals' ignore. This may make them
feel very good but inhibits fluent communication with their (perceived as
second class) Clients. (Remember - with a capital C). It becomes one to
practise humility and equality. Such a stance gets one a lot further.
Let's keep debating these issues. It's good stuff.
Joe
|
|
| "jane woollatt" |
06:48 |
17/11/2006 |
|
Hi Chris and Joe,
I think I am getting this equality bit I struggled with it Joe, when I first
had your response to my thoughts about humility I am starting to get the
difference, now I think.
I am in an interesting situation where I work - inequlity is the mode of
much of the communication that goes on around my ears what I am interested
to notice is that this is creating an atmosphere of splitting anxiety,
stress, mistrust, closed down thinking, caution and so on and so
on........so I am now thinking what would happen when equality is adopted -
more rescently - after your post Joe about equality I tried it in my head -
I am equal to you and you to me - It is interesting to see the
effect.........I know this is not with Clients - what I am noticing is the
effect of holding a balance, Its not all one or the other but both. I know I
have not quiet said what I want to describe but it is in my thinking.
Jane.
>From: "windsor"
>Reply-To: members@ukasfp.co.uk
>To: "Jane Woollatt"
>Subject: [members] A bit more on equality
>Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 17:19:24 -0000
>
>Hi Chris -
>
>
>
>I think your message strays away from the issue of equality. I wholly agree
>with your 'rules of conversation' - but they have nothing to do with the
>fundamental reality of equality.
>
>
>
>I think this is a multi-layered issue with "equality" having many different
>meanings.
>
>Not for me. I am a committed egalitarian and for me the two rules are very
>simple. I am no better than you - and you are no better than I. I control
>the first part - and the fun comes from the second part when people puff
>themselves up and behave as if they are over me in some way. Never. But I
>recognise that others know things that I don't know - which I respect -
>whilst I know things they don't know for which I expect their respect.
>
>
>
>The "equality" I go for is the equality of opportunity to have your voice
>heard which I see as a key building block
>
>of all equality: if you don't have a voice you cannot contribute
>constructively to the world you live in.
>
>I wholly concur with what you say. But I suggest that your expressed
>sentiment is a 'second stage' to the simple principle of equality which, as
>I have suggested, many so-called 'professionals' ignore. This may make them
>feel very good but inhibits fluent communication with their (perceived as
>second class) Clients. (Remember - with a capital C). It becomes one to
>practise humility and equality. Such a stance gets one a lot further.
>
>
>
>Let's keep debating these issues. It's good stuff.
>
>
>
>Joe
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live? Messenger has arrived. Click here to download it for free!
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)
|
|
| "windsor" |
06:45 |
17/11/2006 |
|
Hi Chris -
It's great to have someone make me THINK. I can see the rust particles
coming off my mind!
only yesterday I found myself having a 'superior' thought while watching
another bus passenger
Life is always a challenge. Being an egalitarian takes working at.
These are everyday occurrences for 'users' of public sector services.
Well, I have no experience of the public sector other than being on the
wrong end of it. We'll pass over that. Apart from being a Brief Therapist I
am a qualified Mediator. Sometimes it takes all my patience to deal with
public sector mini-Hitlers. Sad, that.
And I have occasionally met people who have that almost Mandela-like ability
to accept people as they are and be the same person with each but I think
this is a way of being that is beyond instruction
No, not really. It's simple.
We are both necessarily and pleased to be committed to equality and
respectful of difference in our work with clients and in our training and I
don't think it is sufficient to say you should treat everyone as equal.
See below - but I spent a week at Brief - and I was not equal. Fine. I paid.
Brief worked. That was the deal. I was happy with what I was taught and I
have no problem with that. But Brief had no respect for who I was as a
person or what I knew (and taught to many others). Since I did not go there
to be recognised I was not surprised. But you might like to ponder my
experience. If it bothers you mail me off list.
I think we need to teach some basic building blocks: ways of behaving that
promote the possibility of the client experiencing themselves as influential
in their dealings with us. Turn-taking and building on each answer are
behaviors which ensure the client has a say which is heard and that is a
step in the right direction!
I agree totally. Many people have been on the wrong end of 'power' and need
to be built up to have confidence in their views. I expressed that badly but
I hope you can all understand my view.
Chris - my best wishes and respect to you -
Joe
|
|
| "David Steare" |
06:12 |
17/11/2006 |
|
Hi Chris,
As with many ideas I have a problem with your advocacy of 'turn taking'.
For me, this implies
that there is something that is not 'turn taking', which then puts me in a
difficult position viz
the meaning of 'rules of conversation'. So, are your 'rules of
conversation' prescriptive rather
than descriptive?
Best wishes
David
-----Original Message-----
From: members@ukasfp.co.uk [mailto:members@ukasfp.co.uk] On Behalf Of Chris
Iveson
Sent: 17 November 2006 17:50
To: David
Subject: [members] A bit more on equality
Hi Jo
I wish I could but only yesterday I found myself having a 'superior' thought
while watching another bus passenger and the day before I couldn't stop a
little voice in my head saying about a person I'd just met: "I wish I was
more like you!" And I have occasionally met people who have that almost
Mandela-like ability to accept people as they are and be the same person
with each but I think this is a way of being that is beyond instruction (or
the instruction that most of us can afford).
I have also worked with many people who talk equality and do abuse, who say
they will listen and then lambaste, who say they are interested yet ask no
questions based on genuine curiosity, who advocate partnership and impose
conditions. These are everyday occurrences for 'users' of public sector
services.
We are both necessarily and pleased to be committed to equality and
respectful of difference in our work with clients and in our training and I
don't think it is sufficient to say you should treat everyone as equal. I
think we need to teach some basic building blocks: ways of behaving that
promote the possibility of the client experiencing themselves as influential
in their dealings with us. Turn-taking and building on each answer are
behaviours which ensure the client has a say which is heard and that is a
step in the right direction!
All the best
Chris
www.brieftherapy.org.uk
|
|
| "windsor" |
07:17 |
17/11/2006 |
|
Hi Jane -
You're doing brilliantly!!
holding a balance you said - and you are so right. You've cracked it. Just
ignore the inequitable views of those around you.
Let us try a mail role-play. OK? You are a silly young girl who knows
nothing. I am an elder important man who knows everything. Rubbish or
what?!!!!! That statement is so wrong but I can't use bad enough language to
describe it.
I imagine that I am older than you and so I have more experience. Probably
true. You are a different gender from me and so see some things differently
from me. Certainly true. If we met we would bring different experiences and
ideas to the party. Both of equal value.
I am no better than you - and you are no better than I whatever your job
title or family history. Equality. Mutual respect. And, yes, there are
people out there who don't understand that. But they can learn it from the
way you treat them.
We are equals, Jane. Just tell me what you think and I will respect that.
And don't let anyone try to make you think otherwise. If they do - refer
them to me!!!!!!
Cheers treasure -
Joe
Hi Chris and Joe,
I think I am getting this equality bit I struggled with it Joe, when I first
had your response to my thoughts about humility I am starting to get the
difference, now I think.
I am in an interesting situation where I work - inequlity is the mode of
much of the communication that goes on around my ears what I am interested
to notice is that this is creating an atmosphere of splitting anxiety,
stress, mistrust, closed down thinking, caution and so on and so
on........so I am now thinking what would happen when equality is adopted -
more rescently - after your post Joe about equality I tried it in my head -
I am equal to you and you to me - It is interesting to see the
effect.........I know this is not with Clients - what I am noticing is the
effect of holding a balance, Its not all one or the other but both. I know I
have not quiet said what I want to describe but it is in my thinking.
Jane.
|
|
| "graham haddow" |
10:10 |
17/11/2006 |
|
|
| "Mark Allenby" |
09:54 |
18/11/2006 |
|
Hi Joe,
Regarding your comment
> I am a committed egalitarian and for me
> the two rules are very simple. I am no better than >
you - and you are no better than I.
I love this idea since it was introduced to me by a
student nurse. The difficulty I have with it is that
this is a statement of worth or value and cannot be
applied to all aspects.
As a trivial example David Beckham is better than me
at taking free kicks. This is not a value statement,
it's just the way things are.
Now when I person meets with I recognise that I have a
certain expertise. That expertise is based on knowing
roughly what kinds of questions other people/families
I have met with have seemed to find helpful in getting
them what they want from meeting with me. The don't
know what kinds of questions I am likely to ask. This
is unequal, because I know and they don't.
The person or family know what they want and what
resources they have that will move them towards their
preferred future. At the risk of sounding like Donald
Rumsfeld they may not know that they know this yet,
but they will. This is unequal, because they have
access to that, and I don't.
Then some people and families I work with are very
articulate, some less so. Some have much greater
material resouces. Some approach me as an equal, some
are intimidated by the power of the Agency.
To be simple is not to ignore to ignore all the
subtlies of difference in power, but to make sure we
stay as close to the person or family's agenda as
possible.
And as a final contribution, from the 20th Century's
greatest philosopher,
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you
Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which
seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different
when it gets out into the open and has other people
looking at it.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
)
|
|
| "windsor" |
02:25 |
18/11/2006 |
|
Hi Graham -
I'm (slowly) catching up on mails because I had my head into a research task
last night and have been working at Kingston Maurward College today. Just
got home.
Sorry - but perhaps I'm brain-dead. Why does equality worry you and why does
its fundamental reality cause you to say 'oh dear'? I'd love to understand
so please kindly help me.
Cheers -
Joe
_____
Joe,
Bit worried about....... I am no better than you - and you are no better
than I. I control the first part - and the fun comes from the second part
when people puff themselves up and behave as if they are over me in some
way.'....... Fundimental reality of equality................??
..........oh dear
_____
|
|
| "graham haddow" |
09:49 |
18/11/2006 |
|
|
| "windsor" |
09:23 |
18/11/2006 |
|
Hi Mark -
With respect, you are conflating two different issues. Equality is a simple
matter of seeing others as one's equal - as a PERSON. So, yes, it reflects
equality of worth and value.
Separately, you and others have different experiences, abilities and
knowledge. So one expects mutual respect for that. Because I know about -
and teach - NLP does not make me superior to someone. They may know all
about playing soccer (I was a rugby person) whilst I know nothing. So whilst
we are equals as people, I expect respect for my knowledge and grant them
respect for theirs. So your proposition that a situation is unequal because
you know something they don't fails - providing we share the same definition
of the word 'equal' which I use in a very specific way.
A major concern of mine is the many professionals who adopt an unequal
'power' position when dealing with Clients. I reject this behaviour
absolutely. I have a lovely GP whom I have known for some 20 years. He
really did save my life on one occasion and knows much of which I am
ignorant. I respect him deeply for that. He respects me for the things I
know that I share with him on occasion. We also have a long-standing joke
that he went to Dublin Uni whereas I was up at Cambridge. When he wants to
wind me up he 'apologises' for his Uni - and then I assure him, in truth,
that Dublin is a first class place. After all that leg-pulling we get back
to my blood pressure, or whatever. We enjoy equality but have very different
strengths.
No-one should be intimidated by another. If they are - there's a problem to
be put right. Power exists but should never be used. If so, it is probably
abused. One equal can influence another without trampling over them.
Well, that's how I see it anyway. I'm not sure I explained it too well but I
hope that helps!!
Cheers -
Joe
Regarding your comment
> I am a committed egalitarian
I love this idea since it was introduced to me by a
student nurse. The difficulty I have with it is that
this is a statement of worth or value and cannot be
applied to all aspects.
As a trivial example David Beckham is better than me
at taking free kicks. This is not a value statement,
it's just the way things are.
They don't know what kinds of questions I am likely to ask. This
is unequal, because I know and they don't.
Some approach me as an equal, some
are intimidated by the power of the Agency.
To be simple is not to ignore all the
subtlies of difference in power, but to make sure we
stay as close to the person or family's agenda as
possible.
|
|
| "windsor" |
02:25 |
19/11/2006 |
|
Well, Graham, we must agree to disagree.
Your post said that you were 'a bit worried about' equality. So I accepted
that as your view. What worried you?
Please tell me why my comments about people who 'puffed themselves up'
worried you. I can't believe that you accept that mode - and I certainly
don't. Who do they think they are?
As for my views....I'm not sure if 'equality' is a useful or relevant notion
in the context of relationships with 'clients'. We are not equal.
The concept of equality is vital. We are equal. It's just that people know,
have experienced or learned things other than what we know. Working with
Clients demands that we offer them the respect of equality and of their
personal knowledge. After all, in SF work, with what else can they work?
Thanks for your honesty. I trust that you will respect mine - as an equal.
Joe
_____
From: members@ukasfp.co.uk [mailto:members@ukasfp.co.uk] On Behalf Of graham
haddow
Sent: 18 November 2006 21:49
To: Joe
Subject: [members] A bit more on equality
Hi Joe,
I didn't actually make reference to my thoughts on equality, or whether or
not I'm worried by it!
My comments referred to being worried by your description of equality,
particularly with regard to your referrence to 'control' and having fun when
people 'puff themselves up and behave as if they are over me in some way'.
As for my views....I'm not sure if 'equality' is a useful or relevant notion
in the context of relationships with 'clients'. We are not equal.
Graham
_____
From: "windsor"
Reply-To: members@ukasfp.co.uk
To: "graham"
Subject: [members] A bit more on equality
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:25:20 -0000
Hi Graham -
I'm (slowly) catching up on mails because I had my head into a research task
last night and have been working at Kingston Maurward College today. Just
got home.
Sorry - but perhaps I'm brain-dead. Why does equality worry you and why does
its fundamental reality cause you to say 'oh dear'? I'd love to understand
so please kindly help me.
Cheers -
Joe
_____
Joe,
Bit worried about....... I am no better than you - and you are no better
than I. I control the first part - and the fun comes from the second part
when people puff themselves up and behave as if they are over me in some
way.'....... Fundimental reality of equality................??
..........oh dear
_____
_____
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